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Need a better rigging workflow
show user profile  Dejitarujin
Oh boy. Found out why I gave up my rigging attempts years ago, and haven't tried again until now :P

For a variety of reasons - not the least of which being that I'll be modifying the base mesh repeatedly after skinning - I need a better way to work with envelopes. Specifically, I need something new entirely; I need a sort of arbitrary sphere-of-influence gizmo, which would be linked to the bone, making it so areas normally well beyond even a complicated envelope can be affected as in reality. Please tell me such a thing exists.
~~~
Specialty: Non-organic modelling and effects.
Setup: 3D Studio 2010 with finalRender.
Rig: No, no I can't.
read 686 times
2/25/2009 5:50:47 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:01:07 PM)
show user profile  mrgrotey
you need to end your italic tag correctly, you're making everything italic on your post




read 678 times
2/25/2009 6:00:33 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:00:54 PM)
show user profile  Dejitarujin
My bad! Fixed now.

Also, I've figured out that most of my problems could be solved if envelope cross-sections could be individually moved, rotated, and non-uniformly scaled - all of which are apparently locked.
~~~
Specialty: Non-organic modelling and effects.
Setup: 3D Studio 2010 with finalRender.
Rig: No, no I can't.
read 674 times
2/25/2009 6:01:36 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:03:33 PM)
show user profile  jbrophy
You can do this. Take the time to properly skin your initial model. Then make the changes you want and apply a skin wrap modifier. Use the skinned model as your target. This turns each vert into a mini bone. Now you hit the convert to skin button and it reskins your model. You can also export out your skin weights through the utility and add the skin modifier to your new mesh and the import the weights on the new mesh based on vertex position. Reskinned. Nothing will be better than taking the time to properly skin the verts in the beginning. Takes some time but will pay back huge throughout the course of the project if you are making many changes.




Jesse Brophy
jesse_brophy@hotmail.com


Fry Monkey

read 667 times
2/25/2009 6:08:05 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:08:05 PM)
show user profile  Dejitarujin
Well, I don't really have enough vertices to work with to begin with. I need more detail already. Essentially, it is imperative that I use envelopes alone.

But I want even more than that. Envelopes just don't work very well, they don't make sense, and for some reason they're a property of the Skin modifier instead of the bone oject its self. Something better, by several orders of magnitude, would be a set of spherical gizmos - or hell, if you really want to reach the epitome of power combined with user-friendliness, a mesh defining the influence of each bone. Can you imagine that? A low-poly mesh around each bone, defining the off-center influence of the upper leg, or the very flat but very wide influence of a spine bone. Then the skin weights would be based on that. With such a system, completely independant of the actual working mesh, you could save a good bone system and use it over, and over, and over again with all future rigs requiring only minor modifications.

Considering how useful such a thing would be, I find it hard to believe it doesn't already exist.
~~~
Specialty: Non-organic modelling and effects.
Setup: 3D Studio 2010 with finalRender.
Rig: No, no I can't.
read 663 times
2/25/2009 6:24:56 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:24:56 PM)
show user profile  jbrophy
You are not making any sense. Envelopes are much more powerful than any sphere would be. Sounds like you just need to learn to skin to me.

What you are asking for, a low poly mesh that can skin to your detailed model is Exactly what I suggested with skin wrap. That is exactly what it does. But alas, it all comes down to you spending the time to skin well when you make your Master skin.




Jesse Brophy
jesse_brophy@hotmail.com


Fry Monkey

read 657 times
2/25/2009 6:39:09 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:39:09 PM)
show user profile  Dejitarujin
No no, not a low-poly skinning mesh - a low poly area of influence mesh. For example, the mesh that would define what areas are affected by the upper leg would, well, be shaped roughly like an upper leg. One mesh per bone, and areas of transition would be defined either by spaces between these meshes, or by how much they overlap. A series of spheres would work almost as well, probably be easier to program, and could have their own falloff levels for area of influence. (For visual aid, look at an Omni light, with its Far Attenuation, and the manner in which that can be scaled non-uniformly. Replace light intensity with influence, and there you go.)

That would be significantly better than an envelope. Envelopes are forced to be in a straight line, the cross-sections are always round, and for some reason I don't think I'll ever understand messing with the top and bottom cross-sections also affects the height of the round cap (which should at the very least have its own vertices). If one bone could have numerous envelopes, it might be more acceptable, but that's essentially what the sphere gizmos would do. Though, again, those envelopes are a property of the skin modifier - it would make much more sense to have them a property of the bone system, so that any mesh (male, female, ogre) could be laid on top of it without needing to start from scratch.
~~~
Specialty: Non-organic modelling and effects.
Setup: 3D Studio 2010 with finalRender.
Rig: No, no I can't.
read 652 times
2/25/2009 6:53:12 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 6:55:02 PM)
show user profile  $$T-bone$$
The intial size of your bones will affect the initial size of your envelopes. You will still have to adjust the envelopes regardless but, it will help a tiny bit.
the envelopes are resizable. Once the env. is selected, click the "end-point"....it looks just like the radius handle but is positioned at the ends of the bone. click it and then move it.
You can add cross-sections too, which helps.
Once you've crushed a few brain cells over all this, you might want to save your envelopes file...I think it's under the Skin modifier parameters, then under "Advanced" in the modify panel.




read 644 times
2/25/2009 7:04:07 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 7:04:07 PM)
show user profile  jbrophy
You can cal lit a low poly skinning mesh, you can call it an area of influence mesh. The process I posted does what you need. You can pick each individual vert and change the area of influence in the skin wrap modifier. I shall speak of this no more :P




Jesse Brophy
jesse_brophy@hotmail.com


Fry Monkey

read 637 times
2/25/2009 7:16:51 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 7:17:43 PM)
show user profile  Dejitarujin
But that still has the problem of A) The cross-sections being round, and B) The cross-sections all being in a straight line.

For a very specific visual reference:


That's what I'm looking for. Basically, lots of little envelopes all over the place. All individually movable, rotatable, and scalable in any direction, with their own falloffs. Those gizmos would all be attached to just that one bone, and each bone would have its own arrangement (for example, the spine bones would have a very deep but flat arrangement, while the arm might not need anything complicated at all).

Heck, if there were a script to convert light intensity to skin weights, I'd already be in business :P
~~~
Specialty: Non-organic modelling and effects.
Setup: 3D Studio 2010 with finalRender.
Rig: No, no I can't.
read 634 times
2/25/2009 7:22:15 PM (last edit: 2/25/2009 7:22:15 PM)
show user profile  marktsang
i think you need to focus more on your ability to listen
read 605 times
2/26/2009 9:31:29 AM (last edit: 2/26/2009 9:31:29 AM)
show user profile  Dejitarujin
Actually, I need to focus more on Physique ;) It's not perfect, and is glitchy as all hell, but so are many other tools I use. It's light-years ahead of the basic Skin modifier and supports something extremely close to the geometry-based areas of influence I desired. And it's built into MAX.
~~~
Specialty: Non-organic modelling and effects.
Setup: 3D Studio 2010 with finalRender.
Rig: No, no I can't.
read 602 times
2/26/2009 9:37:16 AM (last edit: 2/26/2009 9:37:16 AM)
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